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PTZ Preset VS Smart Tracking?

Jami3

Member
Messages
46
Points
8
I have a DS-2DE5425IW-AE PTZ with smart tracking plugged into an I Series NVR.

I would like to be able to have smart events from other cameras trigger the PTZ to navigate to a certain preset and begin tracking. However, it seems that when a preset is called, the camera waits at that preset for quite a while before it will start tracking.

It is understandable for the camera to do this because you might not necessarily want the camera to navigate somewhere else after calling a preset but I was wondering if there was a way to decrease the amount of time the PTZ stays at it's preset before it begins auto tracking?
 

Dan

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
1,680
Points
83
Hi @Jami3

We have spoken to Hikvision support about this dwell time you describe and unfortunately, they have confirmed it is fixed at 15s and there is no way currently to adjust this delay.
 

Jami3

Member
Messages
46
Points
8
Hi @Jami3

We have spoken to Hikvision support about this dwell time you describe and unfortunately, they have confirmed it is fixed at 15s and there is no way currently to adjust this delay.
Thanks Dan! :)
 

Stuart J

New Member
Messages
14
Points
1
Hi Dan/Jami3

For completeness regarding dwell time of the preset, the following is a quote from page 4 of Hikvision's 'How to Configure PTZ Function' 11 page information document dated 02/04/2020.

"Note: The dwell time of the preset cannot be set less than 15 seconds, this is to ensure that the slip ring has a longer service life."


This begs the question regarding the aforementioned slip ring's suitability for purpose which appears to be an astonishing veiled admission to the contrary.

The main duty of my 'about-to-be-purchased' PTZ was also to be smart tracking triggered from its parked position by any one of three static turrets, potentially then allowing detailed footage by the PTZ from anywhere within its required ca 250 degree coverage arc.

However, swinging around to a preset position at the rate of ca 120 degrees/s is of little benefit if the PTZ then just 'sits there' until this dwell time of 15 seconds has counted down because the chances are that the event has been irretrievably missed and is now outside the PTZ's current FOV.

This is a very disappointing shortcoming for anyone intending to use triggered smart tracking for short duration events where prompt response is of paramount importance.

Dan, if you have the opportunity and indeed the inclination, I would be grateful if you would also ask Hikvision if it is the same situation for the new (S5) range of 5425/5432 PTZ models please (I suspect that it is)?

Many thanks.

S
 

Jami3

Member
Messages
46
Points
8
HI Stuart,

I did later spot that text you quoted there. You raise a valid point there about the suitability.

Strangely, I think I noticed a bug on this PTZ firmware - if you set the park time to anything other than 5s and move the camera manually or if the camera moves as a result of a preset being called, it will never return to park. But if I keep it at 5s, it won't wait for the 15s preset dwell to elapse, if it spots something moving - it will track.

But even still, you are totally correct in pointing out the shortfall here, which is: by the time the camera gets to the position of the preset to start tracking, the person has moved out of the FOV. Unless the camera is very far from the subject matter. I wish the PTZ's focal length started at 2.8mm, it would make auto tracking much easier.

I have actually sent my DS-2DE5425IW-AE back now because I think I will have more luck with the S5 version. Waiting for this to arrive.

I'm pretty sure that the S5 version will present some more "Linkage Methods" for the smart events of static cameras.

The reason I think this is because I can trigger the flashing light and sound on one of my turrets from a different camera as a result of a smart event being triggered.

To be clear, on the NVR, under linkage methods of smart events, I have these options:
192.168.254.3:8000->Light
192.168.254.3:8000->Sound

I think the S5 will present "Smart Tracking" as a linkage method for the smart events of other cameras connected to the NVR. I plan to select "smart tracking" and a PTZ Linkage preset.

Either way, while the non S5 seems to be the same hardware as the S5, the S5 runs completely different firmware so I look forward to seeing how this performs.
 

Stuart J

New Member
Messages
14
Points
1
HI Stuart,

I did later spot that text you quoted there. You raise a valid point there about the suitability.

Strangely, I think I noticed a bug on this PTZ firmware - if you set the park time to anything other than 5s and move the camera manually or if the camera moves as a result of a preset being called, it will never return to park. But if I keep it at 5s, it won't wait for the 15s preset dwell to elapse, if it spots something moving - it will track.

But even still, you are totally correct in pointing out the shortfall here, which is: by the time the camera gets to the position of the preset to start tracking, the person has moved out of the FOV. Unless the camera is very far from the subject matter. I wish the PTZ's focal length started at 2.8mm, it would make auto tracking much easier.

I have actually sent my DS-2DE5425IW-AE back now because I think I will have more luck with the S5 version. Waiting for this to arrive.

I'm pretty sure that the S5 version will present some more "Linkage Methods" for the smart events of static cameras.

The reason I think this is because I can trigger the flashing light and sound on one of my turrets from a different camera as a result of a smart event being triggered.

To be clear, on the NVR, under linkage methods of smart events, I have these options:
192.168.254.3:8000->Light
192.168.254.3:8000->Sound

I think the S5 will present "Smart Tracking" as a linkage method for the smart events of other cameras connected to the NVR. I plan to select "smart tracking" and a PTZ Linkage preset.

Either way, while the non S5 seems to be the same hardware as the S5, the S5 runs completely different firmware so I look forward to seeing how this performs.
Hi Jami3

Many thanks for sharing your experience and information; the combination of parameter settings gives me some hope, irrespective of it being due to a bug/idiosyncrasy of the system.

Regarding the 2.8mm lens, I agree it would be handy on occasions but a 'certain law' states that there would always be scenarios where even that relatively wide (but solitary) FOV would not be quite enough at times. Two of my 4mm (94 degrees HFOV) 4MP 2347 ColorVu cams are positioned with their 'virtual' centre lines in a 'crossed swords' configuration which for my purposes is fine regarding coverage.

Overall I am happy with the ColorVu cams and the light-gathering capability of the F1.0 is impressive. However the definition from ca 15m I had hoped would be a little sharper as my main area of interest is at ca 20m (and occasionally above this) and is a void which a new PTZ should adequately fill.

I note from Hikvision's UK site that together with a number of other models, the DS-2DE5425IW-AE is now EOL so a good decision re the S5; my four DS-2CD2347G1-L(U) ColorVu cams that were new in May 2020 (launched late 2019) is now a model also flagged as 'end of life' and superseded by the 'Generation 2' AcuSense model!

I would be interested to learn of your experiences with the S5 eventually (both pros and cons) and hope that you will be delighted with it. It is a sizeable beast (when compared to my other shortlisted PTZ, the DS-2DE4A425IW-DE) and would not look out of place with a pair of short .22 rifled barrels protruding from its turret :-0)

In the event that you had not seen the DVS video 'How to set up smart tracking on a Hikvision PTZ using VCA' I have pasted the link below. It demonstrates the company's preferred and alternative method to the one more commonly used.

Regards

S

 

Jami3

Member
Messages
46
Points
8
Hi Jami3

Many thanks for sharing your experience and information; the combination of parameter settings gives me some hope, irrespective of it being due to a bug/idiosyncrasy of the system.

Regarding the 2.8mm lens, I agree it would be handy on occasions but a 'certain law' states that there would always be scenarios where even that relatively wide (but solitary) FOV would not be quite enough at times. Two of my 4mm (94 degrees HFOV) 4MP 2347 ColorVu cams are positioned with their 'virtual' centre lines in a 'crossed swords' configuration which for my purposes is fine regarding coverage.

Overall I am happy with the ColorVu cams and the light-gathering capability of the F1.0 is impressive. However the definition from ca 15m I had hoped would be a little sharper as my main area of interest is at ca 20m (and occasionally above this) and is a void which a new PTZ should adequately fill.

I note from Hikvision's UK site that together with a number of other models, the DS-2DE5425IW-AE is now EOL so a good decision re the S5; my four DS-2CD2347G1-L(U) ColorVu cams that were new in May 2020 (launched late 2019) is now a model also flagged as 'end of life' and superseded by the 'Generation 2' AcuSense model!

I would be interested to learn of your experiences with the S5 eventually (both pros and cons) and hope that you will be delighted with it. It is a sizeable beast (when compared to my other shortlisted PTZ, the DS-2DE4A425IW-DE) and would not look out of place with a pair of short .22 rifled barrels protruding from its turret :-0)

In the event that you had not seen the DVS video 'How to set up smart tracking on a Hikvision PTZ using VCA' I have pasted the link below. It demonstrates the company's preferred and alternative method to the one more commonly used.

Regards

S

Hi Stuart. I have now installed the S5 version and will report back with my findings soon.
 

Stuart J

New Member
Messages
14
Points
1
Hi Stuart. I have now installed the S5 version and will report back with my findings soon.
Hi Jami3

Great news, I will look forward to that.

If feasible, my hope is to eventually have two static cams 'calling' the PTZ on a first come, first serve basis (I would expect) but I will be curious to learn how the PTZ deals with any 'conflicting' objects of interest during its smart tracking scans.

Mindful of Hikvision's slip ring statement, I have since given the PTZ's intended park position real consideration and decided that it should 'take in' the highest activity area expected and possibly be set at its widest (57.6 deg) HFOV/shortest (4.8mm) FL. This should then minimise its daily angular scan during a 'remotely triggered' smart tracking but not necessarily the number of triggered movements.

I may well be 'reading' too much into this slip ring life issue but it would be useful to have some kind of quantified usage/movement/life expectancy metric provided by Hikvision to put things into perspective. Western Digital (and others) claim MTBF values for their drives although 'until failure from new' would be a more appropriate definition from my viewpoint; please note that I make no derisory reference here to the old and infamous Seagate Barrracuda! That said, I doubt that any further data from Hikvision will be forthcoming.

Just one other point in closing which is associated with focusing. Whilst you have the latest 'all singing' 5425 (S5), I have seen a Canadian video of the 4A425 Dome in which focusing issues were highlighted under certain conditions/settings. I have also seen a DVS video where a PTZ (model number escapes me) was 'taught' the correct focus setting in a preset for a given section of the property. It may well prove useful in my application if this feature was also available on the 5425 (S5).

Good luck with the testing and I hope that there are 'work arounds' to the currently perceived annoyances/obstacles.

Regards

S
 

Jami3

Member
Messages
46
Points
8
Hi Stuart,

In response to your reply:

Yes, you are correct, you have to set the park position to the preset which has the most amount of activity (see below for why).

I have also seen the the DVS video which illustrates how to 'teach' the camera what amount of focus to use for different amounts of zoom in different positions, as you mentioned. I have not found anywhere in the settings of this S5 camera that allows me to do this.

Focussing hasn't been too much of a problem for this camera, it's not lightning fast but it's acceptable.



Here are my results for the S5 variant.

So to my dismay, it's not really much better. Sure, it has acusense for "Smart Events" only, but that seems to be the only difference. Even the label on the camera and the model number field on the GUI do not have "(S5)" appended to the model number which made me question if it even is a different camera. The label on the box does however mention the "(S5)" and the serial numbers match, so it definitely is the "(S5)" model. Also it runs the "(S5)" firmware.

Next, the Smart Tracking. As mentioned in my other post, there is no acusense presence in the smart tracking menu, which I was hoping for as it seems to be the obvious thing to incorporate into smart tracking in this updated model. I understand you can use VCA/smart events filtered by acusense to trigger smart tracking however this is not very helpful considering the configurable smart event areas are relatively small, meaning smart tracking can only be triggered when there is human or vehicular movement in any of these small areas.

If there is movement outside these small areas, there will simply be no tracking, because in order to realise any benefit from smart event triggered smart tracking, you must of course disable "Smart Tracking" under the PTZ section.

I can imagine the current firmware setup being satisfactory for very large, wide open spaces, but if you do not inhabit an estate the size of a small town then you might not be able to use the camera to it's full potential. On a more serious note, it's clear it was designed for more commercial environments rather than domestic environments, which is unfortunate.

As for triggering smart tracking from other cameras. There has been no advancement when compared to the non S5 version. No additional linkage methods available for smart events on other cameras. If you want a static camera to call the PTZ to a certain position and begin tracking, the first half is no problem after a short delay but the second part - tracking, a bit more of a problem because you have to first wait for the PTZ to arrive at the preset but then for the camera to realise there is something moving and you no longer want it to remain at the preset but start tracking the moving object. Suffice to say, this makes using other cameras to call the PTZ presets with the view to start tracking what is in frame at the preset, not possible.

Finally, one last thing to mention.
Smart tracking no longer searches for lost targets for a few seconds. The non S5 model used to pan and tilt a tiny bit to try and find the target once it had been lost. This camera rushes straight back to the park preset after losing the target which is quite unhelpful. I know about the park time, but that seems to only be relevant when you move the camera manually. I am also aware of the alternates to preset as a park action. But none of them make the camera do the minor scan for target then return to preset if target is not found after X amount of seconds.

Contrary to the typical technological criticism, this camera needs to be made more complicated in order to provide greater configurability, seriously, I wish it had more options.

All I can hope for is a firmware update. Or maybe for an expert.

[Edit]:
I will also add, smart tracking is not so smart - you would have thought, if a vehicle is tracked, then the vehicle stops and a human exits the vehicle, the camera would then change from the non moving object (vehicle) to the new moving object (human) This is not the case, it stays locked onto the vehicle.
 
Last edited:

Stuart J

New Member
Messages
14
Points
1
Hi Stuart,

In response to your reply:

Yes, you are correct, you have to set the park position to the preset which has the most amount of activity (see below for why).

I have also seen the the DVS video which illustrates how to 'teach' the camera what amount of focus to use for different amounts of zoom in different positions, as you mentioned. I have not found anywhere in the settings of this S5 camera that allows me to do this.

Focussing hasn't been too much of a problem for this camera, it's not lightning fast but it's acceptable.



Here are my results for the S5 variant.

So to my dismay, it's not really much better. Sure, it has acusense for "Smart Events" only, but that seems to be the only difference. Even the label on the camera and the model number field on the GUI do not have "(S5)" appended to the model number which made me question if it even is a different camera. The label on the box does however mention the "(S5)" and the serial numbers match, so it definitely is the "(S5)" model. Also it runs the "(S5)" firmware.

Next, the Smart Tracking. As mentioned in my other post, there is no acusense presence in the smart tracking menu, which I was hoping for as it seems to be the obvious thing to incorporate into smart tracking in this updated model. I understand you can use VCA/smart events filtered by acusense to trigger smart tracking however this is not very helpful considering the configurable smart event areas are relatively small, meaning smart tracking can only be triggered when there is human or vehicular movement in any of these small areas.

If there is movement outside these small areas, there will simply be no tracking, because in order to realise any benefit from smart event triggered smart tracking, you must of course disable "Smart Tracking" under the PTZ section.

I can imagine the current firmware setup being satisfactory for very large, wide open spaces, but if you do not inhabit an estate the size of a small town then you might not be able to use the camera to it's full potential. On a more serious note, it's clear it was designed for more commercial environments rather than domestic environments, which is unfortunate.

As for triggering smart tracking from other cameras. There has been no advancement when compared to the non S5 version. No additional linkage methods available for smart events on other cameras. If you want a static camera to call the PTZ to a certain position and begin tracking, the first half is no problem after a short delay but the second part - tracking, a bit more of a problem because you have to first wait for the PTZ to arrive at the preset but then for the camera to realise there is something moving and you no longer want it to remain at the preset but start tracking the moving object. Suffice to say, this makes using other cameras to call the PTZ presets with the view to start tracking what is in frame at the preset, not possible.

Finally, one last thing to mention.
Smart tracking no longer searches for lost targets for a few seconds. The non S5 model used to pan and tilt a tiny bit to try and find the target once it had been lost. This camera rushes straight back to the park preset after losing the target which is quite unhelpful. I know about the park time, but that seems to only be relevant when you move the camera manually. I am also aware of the alternates to preset as a park action. But none of them make the camera do the minor scan for target then return to preset if target is not found after X amount of seconds.

Contrary to the typical technological criticism, this camera needs to be made more complicated in order to provide greater configurability, seriously, I wish it had more options.

All I can hope for is a firmware update. Or maybe for an expert.
Hi Jami3

Needless to say that I am gutted for both of us as I'd had high hopes for the (S5) being a significant step improvement but sadly it is not the case.

It would be interesting to have the input from others including Hikvision regarding your observations and particularly the feasibility of a firmware update's ability to provide the identified shortfall in functionality appropriate for typical domestic applications.

Many thanks for your feedback of the comprehensive testing conducted, it has been of great value despite the disappointing results.

Regards

S
 

Jami3

Member
Messages
46
Points
8
Yes I would very much appreciate hearing what the experts (@Dan and @Phil) think about this.

I think what would be a huge stride forward for this camera is having the ability to call the "smart tracking" linkage method for the (S5) PTZ from the NVR as a result of a smart event being triggered. This way, the PTZ could be called to a preset then "smart tracking" would kick in immediately. It seems the obvious thing to do. To me anyway.

What I am describing is a feature similar to how you can trigger light and sound of a -G2-ISU cameras from the NVR as linkage actions of smart events of other cameras.

Dan/Phil, have you ever had any luck with hikvision taking any suggestions? I'm hoping for a firmware update with some extended configuration of this camera/NVR.
 

Stuart J

New Member
Messages
14
Points
1
Hi Jami3

Notwithstanding Dan's previous assistance regarding dwell time on 12th January, I was also hoping that Phil, Dan, Kyle et al. would have actioned the meat of the thread related to the (S5) that you describe in your 25th and 27th January postings.

This would mean liaising with Hikvision on your behalf (because us mere mortals have no direct access to the company that I am aware of) to the point of feeding back definitive answers from them regarding your identified issues, but sadly this has not been the case although I obviously do appreciate there is a business to run as a priority.

I have also been disappointed by the absence of any input/suggestions from other forum members with PTZs but maybe linked VCA smart tracking with AcuSense is a relatively new combination of features and as such, there may be very little first-hand experience to date.

Have you been able to glean any further workarounds on your (S5) over the past few weeks?

****************************************************************************************************
Request to Phil, Dan, Kyle et al. would you contact Hikvision regarding the inability of the 5425(S5) to execute the actions described in the 25th January posting above please?

To Summarise:

1/ Is it, or will it be possible for the 5425(S5) to perform to these requirements, and if not

2/ Which PTZ models do have this functionality please?
****************************************************************************************************


Many thanks

Regards

S
 

Jami3

Member
Messages
46
Points
8
Hi Stuart,

I suppose my understanding of this problem has developed a little since I last posted. So I may slightly contradict what I originally thought was the underlying problem above. The overall problem remains the same, of course.

Through an installer, I have been able to contact Hikvision technical support. The guy who I was connected with was knowledgeable but not aware of any way of getting around this problem.

At the beginning of the call, I started to get excited as he suggested something to try but it didn't have the desired effect. He suggested the problem could be the post-record time, which does make sense as it is fixed to a minimum of 5s which seems to be the same amount of time which must elapse before the rules will re-enable and start picking up targets again - targets being humans and vehicles which can trigger line crossing, intrusion detection etc. This seems to be the heart of the problem - **once a preset is called, 5s must elapse before targets can trigger smart events, once again**. Smart events which subsequently trigger smart tracking...

To be clear, when I have rules enabled on the camera and I watch a preset get called, the rules disappear for about 5s before returning once again, at which point the rules can detect a target and trigger auto tracking, in addition to other smart events etc.

It's strange that such a significant problem has not been addressed by hikvision.

I must also add that since last posting, I have just about managed to use all available regions (4) in the intrusion detection smart event to cover the area I need. It's not perfect but it means I can use acusense to more accurately identify humans/vehicles and track, rather than using the (figuratively) blunt instrument which is checking the "smart tracking" check box in PTZ settings. I was also hoping this might remove the 5s that the rules are disabled for and fix the problem, but no, unfortunately not.

While hikvision technical support has been contacted through an installer, I would also be grateful to @Phil, @Dan or @Kyle if they could contact hikvision (as you mentioned) as I'm sure they would get a little further being a "registered wholesaler" of hikvision products.

I would be interested in any information they could obtain about this kind of functionality. I think it's so important that PTZ's have this functionality, I don't think it's a lot to ask for.

Thanks,

Jamie
 
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